Curse

Utaku · Apr 10, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

I think that playing my echo SS necro is more fun since friday, as I have to be careful on opportunities to play my signet of lost souls and play a lil' bit more wisely than before.

My curse pve Build before soul reaping nerf :
[skill]Arcane echo[/skill][skill]Spiteful spirit[/skill][skill]reckless haste[/skill][skill]defile enchantments[/skill][skill]desecrate enchantments[/skill][skill]parasitic bond[/skill][skill]mark of pain[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

My curse pve Build after soul reaping nerf :
[skill]Arcane echo[/skill][skill]Spiteful spirit[/skill][skill]signet of lost souls[/skill][skill]defile enchantments[/skill][skill]desecrate enchantments[/skill][skill]parasitic bond[/skill][skill]mark of pain[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

It still works like a charm, and has no energy issue provided i don't suck with the signet.

Just as Avarre said, if mobs die seperatly, you gain lots of energy, if they die all at once, you regen on your way to the next mob, so what's the big deal ?

pingu666 · Apr 10, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

soul reaping completely owns mesmer energy management stuff, nerf or not.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Energy_Tap

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Ether_Signet

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Leech_Signet

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Power_Drain

ZenRgy · Apr 10, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Strength is a terrible primary, end of story.

B-light is outdated.

Holy Veil > Remove Hex.

Friday · Apr 10, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

[edit... ahh what the hell, no point at all in even starting a discussion, I did say "with the skills I have available"]

Each to his own.

Bargamer · Apr 10, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

You're probably thinking of "death throws."

Actually, I mean death throes. But thanks for correcting me in a friendly and polite manner.

Odd how rare that is, nowadays...

mortis corpus · Apr 10, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

i personally hope that the change on this isnt perminite
during the easter time frame when my guid was farming for the choclate bunnies and golden eggs all necros noticed the difference, its something we can live with if we have to for we dont PvP often however with some of the buffs *like with the dervish avatars* the entire guild is in agreement weather or not we play necro that a timer on SR is not the answer i guess time will tell

strcpy · Apr 10, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Have not seen any real difference. There has been a time or two where I waited a second or so before casting SS where I normally wouldn't have but that tends to be about once an hour. I have the energy when the spells need to be cast and when they are recharged.

I use:

16 curse, 11 sould reaping, the rest in blood

[skill]Arcane echo[/skill][skill]Spiteful spirit[/skill][skill]Reckless Haste[/skill][skill]Price of Failure[/skill][skill]Parasitic bond[/skill][skill]Unholy Feast[/skill][skill]Awaken the Blood[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

My armor is a mish mash of factions armor based on looks, no idea the stats and I use a 20%HSR +5e>50 wand (a green that happened to drop along the way) and a 20%HCT/20%HSR offhand.

No energy problems - I can still spam SS as often as it is recharged, get a reckless haste or two off, and still have enough for the other spells if needed. MUCH better than any other energy based class, still no need for an e-management spell or watching/pacing my casting.

So far, Olias has had 0 energy problems also, plus it is a terrible bar as far energy goes.

16 death, 13 soul reaping

[skill]Animate Flesh Golem[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Shambling Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Vampiric Horror[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Taste of Death[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

No radiant insignias (I'm too cheap and he doesn't need them) and he uses the death staff from the Game of The Year bonus items so nothing special there either. He keeps 10 minions up at all times and rarely is out of energy when he needs to cast. there is enough skill points left over that power drain about pays for itself - it is not a form of e-management - the AI has such great reflexes that I put an interrupt on any of them that I can.

Generally speaking, if the heroes are capable of doing something then if you can not you *really* need to be looking at something in your process. I do not know, maybe I'm used to playing other classes that never had an unlimited supply of energy that I just naturally pace myself.

The necro still has the best energy management in the game - I can not put that many high energy spells on my ele with a high energy storage, using e-management tactics/spells, and someone BIP'ing me and still expect to cast for very long. I can do so with the Necro with nothing but Soul Reaping. The fact that people above talk about taking them into areas designed to *really* hurt casters energy (RoT pr the DoA) and still stay full should be something of a tip off.

Ah well, hope you guys that leave find your game you have in mind.

MrTickle · Apr 11, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

What I want to know and STILL HASN'T BEEN ANSWERED is why the extra energy cost of RH when it takes 25 seconds to recharge? It's not exactly spamable.

When a monster comes up to me ingame and says "Excuse me m8 I think SR is over powered" Then AND ONLY THEN would I agree to a SLIGHT nerf not a 90% one.

To those that say it doesn't affect them then good for you I guess you're 1337 k1dd35

Cathode_Reborn · Apr 11, 2007, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Anet isn't done with necros yet:

Quote:

Necromancer
Animate Flesh Golem: decreased Energy cost to 10.
Dark Fury: fixed a bug in the skill's description that caused it to report its range incorrectly.
Icy Veins: increased Energy cost to 10.
Order of the Vampire: decreased Energy cost to 5.
Spiteful Spirit: decreased Energy cost to 10.
Well of Blood: decreased Energy cost to 10.
Well of Power: decreased Energy cost to 10, decreased casting time to 2 seconds.

That's all kinda nice =p (except the Icy veins part

) The SR nerf wasn't that bad, but alot of this will help out abit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

16 death, 13 soul reaping

[skill]Animate Flesh Golem[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Shambling Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Vampiric Horror[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Taste of Death[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

At 13 in SR, why exacly do you have Power Drain in there when you could use Sig of Lost Souls? Awaken the Blood and Unholy Feast are also both a waste of skills/attribute points in your curses build.

ZenRgy · Apr 11, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Haha, look at how many crying kids it takes and spiteful spirit gets buffed. xD

Mark Nevermiss · Apr 11, 2007, 03:11 AM // 03:11

From my own testing in PVE:

1- as MM, well I don't like to play MM to start with as its too much fuss for me

. But for Olias now I always take Eve out and he seems happy enough

.
His build avoids high cost minions and runs thus:
[skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Shambling Horror[/skill][skill]jagged bones[/skill][skill]death nova[/skill][skill]dark aura[/skill][skill]blood of the master[/skill][skill]Karei's Healing Circle[/skill][skill]rebirth[/skill]

2- as SS/SV I had to let go of reckless haste and replaced it with SoLS, and I was doing more or less fine in the GoM mission. The only area I had issues with was domain of secrets, but then again its a pain for all professions, not just necroes. I think only my warrior had no issues there due to adrenaline.

3- in PVP : mostly AB I run a death build and use consume corpse for 20E/100hp (which is both an energy management and life saver at the same time) and I am doing fine indeed.

I , however, still would like to add my voice to those who advocate removing the energy gain from spirits and even reducing gain from minions and otherwise restoring SR to how it was before.

strcpy · Apr 11, 2007, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

At 13 in SR, why exacly do you have Power Drain in there when you could use Sig of Lost Souls? Awaken the Blood and Unholy Feast are also both a waste of skills/attribute points in your curses build.

As I said, that is a hero build (note where I said Olias's build). Power drain is the interrupt they use - it can be any and has been (cry of frustration, etc) - the only reason I use it over the others is that it is mostly free for them to spam. I found that with Cry of Frustration it was irritating when they used it for something crappy, with that I do not care. If I wanted e-management then by all means another spell (signet of lost souls would be my choice as long as the heroes used it correctly) - but as is I just wanted a spell interrupt and that is as good as any.

I can understand Unholy Feast being a waste - that slot changes around all the time and is almost never used. About the only thing it is good for is as a last ditch effort to get a little health. It may sometimes be an enchant strip, spinal shivers, or other skill - doesn't really matter. It just so happens that the last place I was in had a dense enough group of enemies that it was a nice self heal if needed (I prefer at least two self heals - I prefer everyone to be as self sufficient as possible).

However, I do not see why Awaken the Blood is a waste - +2 to the curse attribute line is nothing to sneeze at for an echo SS build. Going from 37 to 41 damage is quite nice - especially once a few of them are going and the enemy clumps up. Nor do I think I am the only echo SS'er that uses it. In fact, that pretty much seems to be a standard in all the Spiteful Spirit builds I've seen so I do not see why it is a waste.

Cathode_Reborn · Apr 11, 2007, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

As I said, that is a hero build (note where I said Olias's build). Power drain is the interrupt they use - it can be any and has been (cry of frustration, etc) - the only reason I use it over the others is that it is mostly free for them to spam. I found that with Cry of Frustration it was irritating when they used it for something crappy, with that I do not care. If I wanted e-management then by all means another spell (signet of lost souls would be my choice as long as the heroes used it correctly) - but as is I just wanted a spell interrupt and that is as good as any.

However, I do not see why Awaken the Blood is a waste - +2 to the curse attribute line is nothing to sneeze at for an echo SS build. Going from 37 to 41 damage is quite nice - especially once a few of them are going and the enemy clumps up. Nor do I think I am the only echo SS'er that uses it. In fact, that pretty much seems to be a standard in all the Spiteful Spirit builds I've seen so I do not see why it is a waste.

[skill]Power Return[/skill]

Use that if you want them to interrupt. Power Drain is a complete waste without a decent rank in Inspiration

Using Awaken the Blood in an echo/SS build is extremely common, and it goes to show that the majority of PvE'ers don't learn and don't think. If you want extra damage, you need to bring both Defile and Desecrate enchantments. If you still want more damage, only then do you use AtB but even at that point, it's not worth it. I've explained this a million times here and on wiki, so I'm not gonna repeat myself. Just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it effective......remember the people using these builds are only PvE'ers and usually don't know much. They run builds they see others using because they can't come up with a good build themselves.......which is the reason Mending is popular along with the ineffective N/Mo golem mm.

Keep this in mind: just because the crowd is all doing it doesn't make it effective.......again....look at the mending wammos. If you still wanna be wasteful with your skills and attribute points though, keeping using AtB.

strcpy · Apr 11, 2007, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

[skill]Power Return[/skill]

Use that if you want them to interrupt. Power Drain is a complete waste without a decent rank in Inspiration

And why is that? As far as I can see power return allows the heroes to spam away all their energy (and is what they do). I do not see that as "usefull" for a minion master to do, in fact I find it useful for them to create minions. Medium to long recharge against spells (not skills/actions - they have the same problem) keep them from draining their energy and interrupt something that is normally something I do not want a mob doing. It's not perfect - sometimes they all interrupt "stone daggers" or some other useless spell - but power return is a recipe for no energy except for a dedicated interrupter (it sits on Norgu's skill bar), though at least it only targets spells. There are other acceptable spells, but a 5e 5s recharge with no energy return is death for a hero not built for that. As is Olias gets a free interrupt every 25 seconds with the AI's reflexes, better than any other "optional" skill I can think of.

Quote:

Using Awaken the Blood in an echo/SS build is extremely common, and it goes to show that the majority of PvE'ers don't learn and don't think. If you want extra damage, you need to bring both Defile and Desecrate enchantments. If you still want more damage, only then do you use AtB but even at that point, it's not worth it. I've explained this a million times here and on wiki, so I'm not gonna repeat myself.

Hmm, I would be interested into why that would increase damage when I meet very few enemies that enchant themselves. Were I playing PvP where that is common - very much so. But in PvE where I almost never see that and it isn't hard to get the heroes to bunch enemies up then I fail to see how +64 to one enemy is better than +3 to 5-10 enemies over the next 10 or so second. Guess I'm just a dumb PvE'er and need a grea PvP playar to explain how 150 or more is actually less than 64. Not to mention that in enchant heavy areas that tends to be what I replace "unholy feast" with - nice thing about "optional" slots is that they can change. Of course, being a PvE player I can not figure that out.

Were I to base all my ideas on PvP I would conclude that MM's suck and are useless - VERY much not true in PvE land.

Quote:

Keep this in mind: just because the crowd is all doing it doesn't make it effective.......again....look at the mending wammos. If you still wanna be wasteful with your skills and attribute points though, keeping using AtB.

And if you want you and the heroes/hench to die more often, keep thinking that power return is a great interrupt for Olias as a minion master and use desecrate enchant on enemies that have no enchants. However, personally, I'll change based on what groups I will likely run into (apparently PvP players do not do this?). The rest of us will realise that "mending wammos" are a joke in *all* parts of the game and are not popular (well, except with PvP'ers who do not play PvE yet like to think they are L33T).

Utaku · Apr 11, 2007, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Defile/Desecrate deal area of effect damage.

AoB is +4 damage per SS hit, which means you need 16 hits to match the 64 damage the extra Defile deals.

Even without the bonus damage versus enchanted foes, an extra defile/desecrate owns AoB hands down.

Thom Bangalter · Apr 11, 2007, 09:55 AM // 09:55

I collect the tears of pve players in a vial that I wear around my neck to help me play better.

Horseman Of War · Apr 11, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

i still think n/e mms are better than n/mo mms any day.

why do you people keep them alive- theres plenty of corpses.

b. wail and k. fervor and energy armor. you get about 80 energy with 2 pips, and a glyph of lesser energy (like you see all the monks doing these days) drop those other dumb spells for putrid explosion and rotting flesh for attack spells. tod, botm, fg, bm and a REZ. this is my mm build, and I cant find anything that works better- ive tried. hasnt changed in a year now.

take it or leave it, but man people do topk WRONG lol

this is not a thread hijacking this is constructive criticism I promise.

Avarre · Apr 11, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTickle

When a monster comes up to me ingame and says "Excuse me m8 I think SR is over powered" Then AND ONLY THEN would I agree to a SLIGHT nerf not a 90% one.

1) Please tell me you are kidding.
2) 90% nerf? See 1.

Cathode_Reborn · Apr 11, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

And why is that? As far as I can see power return allows the heroes to spam away all their energy (and is what they do). I do not see that as "usefull" for a minion master to do, in fact I find it useful for them to create minions.....

You didn't really backup your use of Power Drain. An interrupt every 25 seconds without a decent rank in Inspiration is wasteful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

Hmm, I would be interested into why that would increase damage when I meet very few enemies that enchant themselves. Were I playing PvP where that is common - very much so. But in PvE where I almost never see that and it isn't hard to get the heroes to bunch enemies up then I fail to see how +64 to one enemy is better than +3 to 5-10 enemies over the next 10 or so second. Guess I'm just a dumb PvE'er and need a grea PvP playar to explain how 150 or more is actually less than 64. Not to mention that in enchant heavy areas that tends to be what I replace "unholy feast" with - nice thing about "optional" slots is that they can change. Of course, being a PvE player I can not figure that out.

Were I to base all my ideas on PvP I would conclude that MM's suck and are useless - VERY much not true in PvE land.

Read Utaku's post.....it's exacly why AtB sucks for making SS do more damage. You seem to not realize that AtB adds a mere 4+ damage to SS while Defile/Desecrate do 64 damage in a Nearby range, which is bigger than adjacent. The damage alone already beats AtB, but you can further increase it by using a 20/20 weapon set making it recharge in about 7 seconds. Think about it and you'll realize why AtB is no good.

helldrik · Apr 11, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

after last update I still think that SR should be rethough:
Curses skill dont need to be tweaked, but would be better to tweak the SR timing...for example 3 seconds instead of 5 (and of course SS back @ 15energy cost)